This is a great and depressing read, and as the CTO of a soon-out-of-cash startup I can only say that we receive this bullshit on a founder <-> investor level day in and out.
I've actively thought about creating something like this where you could anonymously tie those stories to the real names of VCs because some of these guys are totally out of their mind.
As a EU-based startup raising a moderate seed round I could tell you two hours about the incestuous and unprofessional VC scene here. People lie into your face, VCs forward confidential information directly to competitors' management, suddenly 5 emails into a conversation people stop from replying for three weeks, etc.
I can tell you that Greg from Boxgroup, New York, has done by far more leads and intros for our shitty EU-based startup than any of those Mr. fancypants German mega-VCs (or so they see themselves).
We have had several cases where we sent the phone # of a very rich business angel to our VCs after they asked for an intro to him in order to take part in (his, kind of) round. They not once called him.
So depressing, but yet so absurd that you can't keep from laughing manically for what kind of high-paid job people are doing there sometimes.
Been thinking about doing the customer version of this.
[after a long indepth technical discussion with a qualified opportunity, quoting, resources allocated, ready to pull the trigger on a large project]
me: So we are ready to go, waiting on the PO
them: Sure, just working through our process
(falls off internets, doesn't respond to phone calls/emails/rejects visits)
Months go by
them: We set up an RFP and bought from someone else.
me: Er ... you used our confidential material (marked as such) to set up a public RFP, that you didn't even invite us to, or respond to our queries? Seriously?
them: Yes.
[bangs head on table, but it gets better ... no ... the other thing]
them: the system we bought (not yours), isn't performing nearly as well as your system that we POCed on.
me: So? Why not call your vendor and have them help you?
them: they aren't able to. They don't know this stuff as well as you do.
me: So, let me get this right ... you want me to provide consulting services to help a competitor of ours ... compete ... with us?
them: Not so much consulting, as free advice and guidance. Like you did during the POC.
[resumes banging head on table]
them: hello? whats that noise?
[years pass]
them: we need to rethink our strategy, it was an order of magnitude slower than your unit at about 2-3x the cost.
me: no kidding Sherlock
them: we want to start this process again ....
me: (fits of laughter) uh ... no.
My favourite:
Founder Institute
- run by international group of millionaire magazine-cover entrepreneurs
- doesn’t invest a penny in its companies
- charges founders thousands of dollars for mentorship
- well-regarded startup accelerator
-------------------
I was once offered the position to head the local chapter, after having a private phonecall with Adeo, I declined as I couldn't see the value offered. The next person took it, and as expected, the local chapter failed spectacularly and the people founding it were out of a lot of work and didn't get anything in return.
It's still a mistery to me why that organization has credibility.
> me: hi i'm here about the lead developer position
> CEO: cool man lets grab a couple beers
> me: (over beers) hi i'm here for the lead developer position
> CEO: yeah dude but are you any good at foosball?
> me: (over foosball) i'm here for the lead developer position
This is surprisingly common and not just for hiring technical roles. I find it especially odd when founders do it in the process of hiring their first few employees....it's like dude, you don't even have a culture yet, why do you care about culture fit?
It would be impossible to quantify but I wonder how many good ideas tackled by good founders never got off the ground because they were overly fixated on getting the first 10 hires EXACTLY right.
Startup: We need an experienced Foo programmer.
Me: Those are easy to find.
Startup: Our lead developer keeps shooting them down because they don't know (obscure keyword).
Me: How long would it take an experienced programmer to learn (obscure keyword)?
Startup: I don't know, maybe an hour?
Me: How long have you been hiring for this position?
Startup: About six months.
Me: Would it help if I sent you a transcript of this call?
Startup: What?
Me: Never mind...
-- me: sits through yet another mandatory hours-long meeting where the loudest two developers one-up each other to find the best hypothetical solution to the most convoluted problem they can imagine as it relates to the urgent, critical problem we currently face whose simple, plain solution goes entirely ignored and where no decision is made. --
I have trouble laughing at what I know is supposed to be humor, because of how tragically true this is and how much this affects me on a regular basis.
But I don't work for a startup! I thought it was supposed to be different in that world.
Perhaps some problems are just universal.
Hi, so this is all happening at the startup I work at:
#1
CEO: We just closed a XX million dollar Series C funding round!
-- later at an a company wide meeting ---
CEO: we have zero revenue. if we asked our customers to pay us, they would drop our product in a second... so, uh, we really don't have product market fit yet.
me: ...
CEO: no worries. we are attacking such a large market. surely we'll find something. and when we do it will be HUGE... it'll be... it'll be... it's so huge I'm having trouble even describing it!
#2
-- at an important weekly product meeting --
CEO: okay it's been ten minutes. where is [cofounder]
CTO: oh he's in china for the week.
CEO: ...
CTO: On vacation.
everyone else: ... (your cofounder didn't tell you that?)
#3
me: your company name "cadabra" sounds like cadaver.
ceo: nah, dude.
me: you had to spell it out when I asked you to pronounce it.
ceo: nah, we just need to hire more marketing people.
#4
wannabe designer: so tell me how you approach design.
me: well I really like being apart of the process from start to finish, since I've also done UX wor--
designer: great, let me tell you how we do design here. i draw up the stuff and you do it, unless there's a technical problem. you can argue and you will be wrong, ha ha.
me: you're joking right?
designer: * proceeds to create barely passable UIs *
And the list goes on. I have plenty of more stories to share but I am currently busy seeking employment elsewhere.
Shameless plug: If you're looking for an American android developer (10,000+ install base on play store), or a front end web developer ( Tech Giant), a back python/java developer ( past startups ), let's talk shop at snarkyhackernewsuser@gmail.com.
A lot of these anecdotes are the frustration with dealing with people that waste your time. I guess it's not limited to just the startup space but one thing I've learned is that there is an unlimited number of people that are willing to waste your time and boy is it frustrating.
> married hetero male founders: we're thinking of getting an intern
> me: okay but I don't see what we could offer. You know we're on a really tight
> married hetero male founders: we're getting an intern.
> intern: (beautiful 18yo girl)
Young male intern --> Everyone assumes you're a Wunderkind.
Young female intern --> Everyone assumes that the CEO is having sex with you.
Startupbullshit
So many... so many.
me: (up all night fixing bugs in production due to technical debt and mistakes from overworked and tired devs. Sleep from 5am to 9am, show up to office at 10am)
CEO (sales background), walking by as he sees me enter the office: "Hey tone, I want butts in seats, including yours. We have a culture of hard work here. Set an example."
...
CTO: "We don't need to hire expensive devs. Just hire from overseas and promise them an H1B. They'll work for the minimum."
me: "That's not only unsustainable, it's unethical. H1B is a lottery, we can't promise that!"
CTO: "I don't expect them to know that, and you're not going to tell them! Get them on-boarded and working a.s.a.p."
me: (goes home, writes resignation email)
Interviewer: We need someone with [describes soft skill set for my dream job]
Me: Great career opportunity, I'd certainly be willing to move across country for this
Interviewer, day 1: Here's your desk, now I'm going to assign you a ticket off the backlog. Let me know when you're done and I'll assign you another one. [pats me on the head and walks away]
Bait'n'switch, and I fell for it. I think it's the only way they can get people to come to this no-good podunk town, with not a sushi bar for miles, and 19th century development practices. And yes, I am preparing my awesome flameout exit. I hope to hear the lamentation of their womenfolk.
A lot of these appear to stem from inexperience -- the founder/CEO/CTO doing and saying what they think they're supposed to do or because "that's what successful people do."
I'm going to be slightly reverse-ageist for a moment: I'm at a startup where the average age is over 40, the founder is deeply experienced as both an engineer and a manager, and I can honestly say that NONE of this stuff happens. I took my reading these anecdotes to appreciate how nice (and apparently rare?) this is.
I loved these! I certainly have been through some of that nonsense.
i would add:
job offer: salary range $100-$130k
interviewer: the max for this position is $80K
interviewer: hello?
Based on my experience, there doesn't seem to be much overlap between the type of charismatic pitch founder capable of raising money and getting people to work for less than their market rate, and the bean counter-oversight founder capable of running an efficient business. But it's the former type that is able to raise money, so they find themselves in a position to have conversations like these.
Problems are not just limited to startups. Here's some of the shenanigans which went on in the last company I worked for:
Company is constantly on credit hold. Engineers receive calls from suppliers stating that they haven't been paid and no one in accounts payable is returning their calls.
Company does layoffs on a recurring basis, and then hires different people for a new project. In one case they hired back the same people they laid off a year ago and paid them signing bonuses.
CEO shows gross indifference when someone leaves the company. Just shrugs it off.
CEO walks into VP of HR's office with someone and states that you're fired, and this is your replacement.
CEO constantly worrying about getting delisted from NASDAQ.
CEO and VP Engineering "chum" thinking they know the price of components and stating that that should cost $5, when everyone supplying stated item is asking $15.
I've worked for startups as a full-stack dev for about 5 years, and spent the last year trying to land a position in as a technical manager. This specific pursuit has lead to some of the most bullshit encounters I've had with startups. What are some of your bullshit experiences?
I had this:
young male intern: talks a lot but is not working young female intern: does all the work of the male intern, gets half the pay
me: why? ceo: because the male intern is from some important school!
The "less than half for cash" one is something I used to see from customers all the time when working in a bar. You'd say "£10.50, please" and they'd reply "£10 for cash?" as if I'd happily chip in 50p myself (till shortages need covered somehow) instead of having to accept a card payment. I never understood the mentality - it costs £x, so pay £x or go away
It's probably unfair to pin all the sexism stuff on startups. If you've ever been to a big company, you'd know that the pink collar workforce idea is way worse. There are a lot of women in junior or administrative positions who can only really interact with their bosses and immediate peers professionally but whom the entire organization, from CEO to lowly PA, tries to hit on.
Three of mine:
Recruiting company: Someone needs a php developer for work in X industry.
I work on the industry, take the test they give me, get a perfect score, never hear a word, no interview.
Big company : I travel across the mountains to an interview, 15 minutes before arriving I get a call, "we can't meet you today, we will come back with another time".
Startup: we need someone with strong cognitive skills and php and javascript experience (8 y ago, before everyone had 10 y javascript experience). In interview: you are one of two qualified, the otherone is from <other country, more than two hours away, by plane>, -goes on to advertise the position again, then after realizing there are no other goes on to offer me below market rates. I go on to learn Java in a better paid job with better well - everything.
Here's one (not solely experienced in startups, however):
manager: "Since you're single, can you work through the holidays and cover the systems/push this feature/go the extra mile so that the people with families can spend time with them?"
After a round of interviews/ in person with a public software company in Boston (who just acquired last pass):
Company recruiting lead: The team enjoyed meeting you. They felt you are very smart and personable. [VP of engineering] liked your work with machine learning. At this time, they feel you are a bit junior for the team.
I had to laugh, glad I dogged a bullet.
CEO: We gonna need to do some crunch time the next 2/3 weeks. Unfortunately, we fell behind schedule and we can't let this next delivery be late. We can't pay any of you overtime because we are already on a tight budget, as you know, but to raise moral after we deliver the company is going to take everyone out to this great restaurant + drinks to raise our morale and toast of the future of this great and promising business!
The team: Ok. Not what we expected, but we have some equity, its a tough market, and we have been working on this for a while. Let's hope it pays off in the future.
Three weeks - working from Sunday to Sunday - later...
The Team: Yes! I can't believe we delivered! We are more motivated than ever! Now let's celebrate!
CEO: Yeah, sorry, no time for that. Here's a $40 dollar check for each of you to go out and grab a bite. Oh, and by the look of our roadmap we might need to crunch some more next month.
The Team: [starts quitting one by one]
Am I the only one who would have really appreciated a trigger warning?
YC helps young founders because of stereotypes against them. I wouldn't imply that someone lacks merit because she is 18 and attractive. There needs to be more context for that post.
My first startup's CEO practiced "The Game" and used to bring the dev team out in SF to practice peacocking, negging and other ridiculous seduction techniques on unsuspecting women. I'm in an ltr and dreaded having to go, but didn't want to be left out so I would tag along. It was horrible.
happened to be recently:
Manager: Hey you're here for the xx position right? You know, you sound like you'd be a really good fit for this new job that opened up, I just fired this guy, millennials amirite, so let's talk about that for the next hour.
me: I'm here for the engineering manager position
them: great, can you come in for a front-end developer interview at 2?
me: I'm here for the engineering manager position
them: here's an offer for a front-end position making below-average $
me: thanks for your time
them: ???????
CEO: Why won't anyone work for us?
them: we offered them a job!
one from the devops/sre trenches...
> (devops guy) hi, im here for the lead devops role > (CTO) awesome, you'd be a great fit here. can you write a sudoku solver in ruby real quick? > (devops guy) [writes solver in ruby] > (CTO) wow looks great... when can you start? do you have any questions for me? > (devops guy) I do have a question: how do you shard your bigdata installations and what is it built on? > (CTO) oh I wrote my own, we call it redisbigtable -- its the worlds first CAP compliant data store. oh, and we shard by customer. > (devops guy) thank you for your time.
>Would you sign something saying you'll give me $250k in cash one year from now if I work for the company?
this is classic ! :)
I've had 2 of these exact interactions, in the London local startup scene, and that was just last week.
Are these just made up or are they coming from somewhere?
---
During interview with founder:
me : I believe 'honesty is the best policy'
founder: Great! we need like-minded people like you.
(after few months)
founder: He creates negative environment within the team!
Many/most seem more an indictment on engineer lack of understanding what it takes to get a startup off the ground.
Reminds me a lot of
COO: We need to crush the MVP, so unfortunately we'll be working weekends now.
Designer: ...
COO: Don't worry everything will cool down after Thanksgiving!
Designer: Fine...
(Week before Thanksgiving)
COO: Finish everything? Like is X, Y, Z all good to go?
Designer: Yep, everything's finished!
COO: Awesome! Unfortunately, we're going to have to let you go...
Has anyone done the math to show if your odds are better at the typical startup vs the typical craps table?
Equivalents of time and money, and the odds of wasting it all on chance?
We are working in a coworking space, but the CTO doesn't seems to like this idea at all, he keeps asking people in the common area to shut up.
It's quite scary how many startups treat Lean Startup as the gospel and follow it word for word.
It's beyond me why would anyone would want to give away part of his/her company just because of some shitty development work, and most of developers do just that - write shitty code because they don't give a crap about quality
As a founder you are better of paying some random developer do have viable product and then if it works - hire someone.
NEVER GIVE AWAY EQUITY FOR JOB.
This is so true! Awesome (and sad)!
this is amazing.
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love the equity one. imagine asking "what is the expected value of the equity?", getting a number, and then saying "ok, pay me that when it vests instead of giving me the equity".
So assuming these are real, this guy gets fired (or just plain ditches companies) very often. Sounds like the diametrical opposite of a good employee.
Somebody who dedicates his time to publicly spew this toxic attitude will likely not archive success that is pleasant for him.
Feel free to steal mine:
#1
me: the candidate seemed pretty good, even if he made some mistakes.
CEO: a false negative is better than a false positive! Better to reject and err on the side of caution!
...later
CEO: we can't find people! There's a shortage! It's a crisis!
#2
CEO: we only hire the best, smartest people in the world!
me: OK I found one! He wants a high salary.
CEO: welllll, average market salary is only $, but since "we're a startup" we can't even do that....