One of the big problems of Aadhar to me is the mandatory use. I understand the terrible problems of stolen benefits, and how the card could help.
But in a country as large, dispersed and disorganized as India, mandatory is a risk. Plenty of people will slip though the cracks and be unregistered. It works in a tiny country like Germany where it was built on top of other infrastructure (ID cards were introduced in the 1930s; other uses were introduced lated once they had become essentially ubiquitous).
In addition, the lesson of China is salutary: siblings (whose very existence violated the one child policy) were often not registered, and thus missed out on schooling and other benefits. The "hukou" system controlled who was allowed to work or travel -- and surely everyone can imagine a government trying to fight urban slums by prohibiting migration from the countryside (by denying benefits)?
All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things.
Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets security right the first time and nothing is secure forever.
Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government? Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State.
Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.
(Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?
Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO
India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?
Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing).
How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?
edit: removed a sentence which got repeated.
One thing I find frustrating in these arguments about Aadhaar is that the people defending it seem to align themselves by political affiliation.
People have to remember that even if the present government has good intentions and the PM is doodh ka dhulla (translation: incorruptible), Governments do not last but these programs will and if there is a way to exploit something at this scale, you better bet it some government (if not today's) will.
Aadhaar is one of those programs which is a solution looking for a problem, at huge cost of privacy, security and government surveillance. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
I am in the wait and watch camp. So far aadhar has shown promise and benefits. I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. For privacy, they will get their act together I hope (plug leakages if any). If they don't, it would be foolish for them to think that we won't come after them. I have faith in the current generation. The activation energy maybe high but boy do they protest when they do :)
These comments demonstrate how patriotism can affect ones rational and objective thinking.
There are understandably benefits and convenience, however the articles focus is not that. It highlights the inherent threats to citizens individual freedoms that has somehow been missed by commentators.
It sounds and looks really bad, but, India currently is so desperate to ridicule corruption that it's going to any lengths possible, which includes invading people's privacy. Now, I don't know if that's the right thing to do.
I recently made a trip to India; just a week earlier me and a few friends were talking about driver less cars, automation, AI etc.(you know the usual SV talking points) When I landed there all this futuristic talk flew out of my head; it is a very different world out there.
I am reminded of this feeling, because this author sits in his/her nice comfy office in Mountain View mouthing off on something with no understanding of ground realities; to me this is absurd. When I say reality, I mean actually living there. Taj Mahal selfies and elephant rides are not counted :)
Does anyone care about privacy in India as much as they do in the US? I seriously doubt it. Let's be real, most of us (Indians in the US) did not even know what privacy meant and we don't really care about it. If we did, we wouldn't be posting on FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. or signing up for a time share presentation just to get a 3 day hotel stay ;)
Its unsurprising that there can be no civil conversation on this topic on HN.
The tech sphere in India is divided into straight up optimizers, for whom things like privacy are an impediment to the progress of the nation. Said progress will make everyone's lives better, so it must progress.
These are the majority of coders that seem to be in the Indian sphere.
In sharp contrast, are the people currently fighting Aadhar in the Supreme court, who believe that privacy is the fundament of a nation in the first place. That without privacy you cannot have a democracy.
And this is just online, what actually happens between the closed doors of power is utterly bereft of what normal American HN crowd would consider civil liberties and human rights.
For those who actually control the system, losses and inaccuracy in aadhar are the same as errors in banking transactions. As long as theres a X sigma error rate, they don't care.
The entire article's argument of breach of privacy hinges on the claim that "the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish". Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement?
On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.
Aadhaar per se is quite harmless. It is pretty much what Estonia has been doing for the past 25 years with no ill effects. Quite in contrary. The question is privacy: we have a strong personal privacy law and are moving to make things more transparent all the time. People do care about this. Whether that's the case in India and to what extent, is up to Indians to say.
Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!
I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms.
These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.
Replace aadhar with SSN and this would still (mostly) hold true. The only difference is biometric backin in aadhar. Silly PR
The amount of people calling FUD is amazing.
Let's first talk about the implementation: How many cards do we have in India specially for ID purposes? PAN for taxes, Raashan card for food grains and subsidies are the two names I can think of from the gamut of ids. Now a person needs Aadhar to literally do everything not including taxes and subsidies. Why is that? Isn't it enough that people kowtow to babus to get their other cards that we now need this? People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.
Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA...
UIDAI said this: “It is an isolated case of an employee working with a bank’s Business Correspondent company making an attempt to misuse his own biometrics which was detected by UIDAI internal security system and subsequently actions under the Aadhaar Act have been initiated,” according to a statement by UIDAI. (http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadh...)
So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.
I have refused to get Aadhar card because I don't want to share my biometric data. Many say what is wrong if you have or never going to do something wrong. I refer to you: "Don’t confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy." (https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why...)
I never wanted one because I am not opting for subsidies by choice. I earn enough and pay my taxes on time. But this forced choice of filing returns only using Aadhar has left me no choice.
And for the tinfoils out there. About some kind of conspiracy about the timing. Same could be said about Aadhar. What is the reason government is rejecting people's concern and supreme court directive of not making this mandatory? If some kind of foreign money is involved is the logic here, same could be said about Nandan Nilekani and his private company which started this all.
Without privacy there is no democracy. Law for privacy should be established.
Does anyone know what sort of data they collect on people to identify them? One reason I ask is that I wonder how such a system could be used to provide a "scientific" answer as to what caste a person belongs. That would obviously be a little worrisome if it were possible.
What the fuck is this bullshit system?
i get it. big brother is watching us. now im going to eat my pizza. big brother can watch if he likes.
Seriously Mozilla?
The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral litmus tests.
I belong to the third world of the third world.
State called Uttar Pradesh.
If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India.
Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar :
My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents.
Which means,
No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe.
Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore.
This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised.
The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment.
Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years.
2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution
Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years.
Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014.
Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then.
All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people.
Coincidence?
Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ?
Coincidence?
Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.
https://rethinkaadhaar.in/testimonials/
^ What happens when a centralised system with brittle architecture fails.
For all the nationalistic spiel, the fact remains that even if I have a passport that proves my identity, service providers (public and private, equally) are forced to ask (or just blindly ask for) my Aadhar number (which I don't have) . Ironic isn't it.
This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government.
Mozilla is equivalent of those who criticized "Green revolution" because if fed starving people without causing "social revolution" etc. Aadhar has potential to cause "Digital revolution" and decades from now Mozilla will be on the wrong side of history.
Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
Well, I agree the discussion is pretty awful. But this policy is a bit unclear to me (and otherwise unwritten, AFAICT):
> not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence
That's confusing: What evidence could users have? In my comment, one of the ones you objected to, I cited some strong patterns in the discussion. That's going to be the best evidence that users have access to unless it's very clumsily executed. The astroturfers aren't going to out themselves; looking like ordinary users is the fundamental requirement of 'astroturf'.
So if there's no possible sufficient evidence, do you really mean, 'don't bring it up at all?' I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but nobody even should point out the general possibility, saying for example, "it seems like something odd is going on here; all these talking points look the same and are made provocatively ..."?
There is no doubt astroturf happens here, simply because there is overwhelming evidence that it is rampant on the Internet and HN isn't exempt. If users can't discuss the topic at all (probably not what you meant), that would shield the bad actors and be a recipe for it to happen unrestrained.
EDIT: some clarifying edits
https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
Posting these for everyone's benefit.
OMG Mozilla. No wonder open internet is in such a bad shape when we have you leading it.
1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all.
2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication.
3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop.
4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it.
5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court.
6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption?
Easy add Aadhaar based autnetication to your app. http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/
7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs.
Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not?
Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min.
This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India.
I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India.
Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar.
Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.
Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself.
> The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need
> them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
> Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification
> necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
> It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh...
> It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping
> programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple
> hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because
> their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this
> conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems,
> and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral
> litmus tests.
I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India:
Except from the book "Restart"[1]
> Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered.
> India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business;
> everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why
> don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is
> a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in
> the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we
> have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown
> to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was;
> perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business.
http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...
Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones.
Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.
The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting.
The poor and the rich have had "real" identification that has worked well - the electoral ID for example. Forcing aadhar down everyone's throat with no practical complaint redressal is the issue here. (Good luck getting UIDAI to take responsibility)
Aadhar is not progress. Forcing biometric identification that relies on brittle infra is not progress. It is a sign of short sighted faith in solving people problems with technology.
India can solve its problems by its own when it recognizes that beyond money, there are people who are willing to support its technology movement. Competant tech people have time and again come out against the architecture of the solution - the last to suffer for it was Kiran Jonnalgadda (jackerhack on twitter).
This was a solution designed to give absolute oversight of people, as an exclusionary mechanism.
Clarifying more.
1. Aadhar verification failures are a lot more than its advocates proposes. I have seen logs of verification failure with rates upwards of 30%. (No, I am not willing to disclose where, except that it was available publicly on the website of an organisation associated with the government). Citizens will still go starving with that kind of failure rates. Remember that Aadhar Card is a piece of paper with your Aadhar number on it and no storage whatsoever. This is different from countries like Malaysia where they have a national ID card with biometrics stored on chip.
If the verification fails and it does fail all the time, good luck to the poor people who wants UIDAI (not even under legal obligation to do it by the way) to redress the complaint.
2. Privacy.
I like it how everyone conviniently ignores this :
"Even worse, the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish. This would allow companies to have access to some of your most intimate details and create detailed profiles of you, in ways you can’t necessarily see or control. The government can also share user data “in the interest of national security,” a term that remains dangerously undefined. There are little to no protections on how Aadhaar data is used, and certainly no meaningful user consent. Individual privacy and security cannot be adequately protected and users cannot have trust in systems when they do not have transparency or a choice in how their private information will be used."
I mean WTF man. Really ? That is what a Government is supposed to do ? Sell your citizen's data ? Because that is exactly what is happening here.
Good job Mozilla. You prove you stand for people.
All: many commenters in this thread have violated the HN guidelines very badly. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which side of a debate they take. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
That includes not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence. Somebody merely disagreeing with you does not count as evidence.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html