Is this google starting to test the waters when it comes to arbitrarily kicking out software they personally don't like? (open source, decentralized, privacy oriented etc.) I might of course be exaggerating a bit here, keep that in mind.
- Element and Matrix are growing but still not equipped to fight back at large against this, so it is unlikely to create too much negative press
- If Google starts to catch too much critique for this decision they can put it back and always blame $error
I believe Element will be back soon, the problem I see here is that it will be framed as an "honest mistake" and then become forgotten until they pull another stunt like this.
Even if these removals are temporary, they can still hurt growth. Let's assume a bit more malice: Couldn't Google just monitor and analyze metrics of an undesirable app (downloads, usage, hype), pick a critical point in its growth then "accidentaly" remove it for a few days, causing damage that isn't immediately apparent, but nonetheless long lasting?
I believe that removal of Element from Google Play Store is a violation of EU regulation 2019/1150. Element has legal entities in Britain (which is affected by Brexit but has similar law) and France. Google is LEGALLY required to provide a justification for removal 30 days before application removal.
Anyway, you may try contacting Google using EU regulation 2019/1150 violation procedure, see https://support.google.com/merchants/answer/9969397 for more information. This may be more effective than using a regular contact procedure, as it would show Google that you are aware of this regulation and they are unlikely to win.
Note that I'm not a lawyer.
If there's a backlash, it will just be explained as an "oops," like when Firefox devs catch them doing stuff like this:
>https://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-executive-claims-that-go...
>In a thread on Twitter, Mozilla's Technical Program Manager has stated that YouTube's Polymer redesign relies heavily on the deprecated Shadow DOM v0 API, which is only available in Chrome. This in turn makes the site around five times slower on competing browsers such as Microsoft Edge and Mozila Firefox. He went on to say that:
>>YouTube serves a Shadow DOM polyfill to Firefox and Edge that is, unsurprisingly, slower than Chrome's native implementation. On my laptop, initial page load takes 5 seconds with the polyfill vs 1 without. Subsequent page navigation perf is comparable.
I have no idea whether this is correlated with the other recent de-platforming events, but the rapidly growing list of examples is now getting ridiculous. Itâs crazy to imagine that the rug could get pulled out from beneath any of us, any time, under any pretext (or no pretext at all!). I donât know whether a more apt metaphor alludes to serfs on feudal land, or The Trial by Kafka.
If it turns out this is because of specific discussions/channels then banning the Element app for that makes about as much sense as banning Facebook/Twitter for what some people said, or Google because of what some website says.
OEMs and software vendors have been pushing hard towards locking-down and controlling people's computing devices and people have largely been indifferent.
It genuinely seemed all was going to be lost until the tech industry went crazy exercising their control. Their recent (and imo unjustifiable) actions have clearly demonstrated to everyone what it means to hand over control. It remains to be seen whether people will grasp this chance to reverse the course that this rotten industry has charted and is adamant on following.
Doing this just a week before FOSDEM [1], a very large conference that will run online using Matrix, is scandalous.
Ironically this move finally made me to consider Matrix. I'm thinking about spinning a server on a non FAANG provider like Vultr or Linode and setting IM services bridges from there. Nowadays I use lots of different communicators to talk to different people and most of these apps track me. If I setup a Matrix server somewhere that allows me to use those networks without having their software installed on my devices that will not only be convenient but also improve my privacy. Not to mention the Matrix network and protocol that can be used to do fun stuff.
Is Dendrite ready for use? I don't have a lot of memory available and I heard Synapse is kinda heavy on resources.
Don't forget that F-Droid is a thing, and Android still has at least that much freedom - to install your own software.
Who would have thought 30 years ago someone would be saying "People can run any code they want on their computer" as a shocking thing.
Hi there, if you're a small business impacted by this please comment how below, i can raise the issue with congressional representatives via the national small business association. I've seen a couple posts about this already.
From my perspective, decentralized, free and open source software enables and supports a range of small businesses. The replacements for tools like Element are big-tech tools ranging from Whatsapp (Facebook) to Slack (Salesforce).
It seems all those deplatforming started really recently with trump/parler and turned into a witch hunt. It's now totally out of control and we start to look like CCP
This is very disruptive to me. Our business chose to use Element because of the privacy and interoperability functions it afforded us through end-to-end encryption and the bridges feature (matrix.org/bridges).
Within a day, Google have removed 100k Robinhood reviews and suspended this application. I wonder if these arbitrary actions will become a daily thing soon.
F-Droid Link:
Element (previously Riot.im) (Secure decentralised chat & VoIP. Keep your data safe from third parties.) - https://f-droid.org/packages/im.vector.app
Something is being missed in these "Element isn't Parler because..." comments. Distinctions about client vs platform do not matter _at all_ to someone at Google headquarters. Content they find unacceptable is accessible, or it's not. Full stop.
The FAANGs now have a strong incentive to boot anything and anyone making objectionable content available in any way because that's the way public sentiment has shifted. It's really incredible to see how quickly the deplatforming chickens came home to roost. We're now shooting ourselves in the feet at Internet speed.
Looking for a reason?
From https://element.io/
"Keeps conversations in your control, safe from data-mining and ads"
I hope more apps start allowing to directly download an .apk file from their website.
I don't have Google Play Services or the Play store installed on my phone nor do I want to install them. Yes, it's my responsibility to update the app, whatever, just give me the file.
I wonder if France will have something to say to Google about this in the EU.. France uses Matrix. Google's powerful, but they're not a legislative body.
Oh wow, this chat has blown up with messages and I doubt anybody will see this message at this point, but here we go.
During these weeks of being at home and having lots of free time after work, I've been doing _projects_. For a while, I've been reading how people rant about Matrix always on HN, and I finally decided to suck it, install my own home server and try it out by myself.
The installation for sure requires a bit of understanding about DNS and you kind of (if you want things to be simpler) need two servers: one for your root domain and other for your matrix server. If you nail these two things correctly, can wait a bit for the DNS records to spread out in the network, you'll get the matrix federation working quite nicely.
I highly recommend using some of the automated tools, such as the ansible playbook[0] to help you out maintaining the server. It makes setting up the bridges for other chat platforms very easy.
I have to say, having one application for all my chats. The same interface, no need to install five apps to talk with people, this all is so nice. It's definitely worth the trouble, even when with Synapse you need a bit more powerful server, like four gigs of RAM is a good minimum for a server and all the bridges. Now we only need to have an easy way to install the clients, so we can help our not so technologically advanced friends to join. I think Google knows this; how in 2021 people are forming their own communities, outside of the power of the big corporations. Now Matrix is quite technology oriented, it feels like IRC back in the 90s which I really enjoy!
>in the interim there's https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ but it's a few versions behind.
Honest question: Why is the F-Droid option a few versions behind?
Why, when an app is "suspended", Play Store shows 404 as if it never existed?
Can't Google display the app page with some status banner and a reason for suspension while disabling install button, or allow installing last known "approved" version?
Looks like it was indeed due to abusive content:
https://mobile.twitter.com/element_hq/status/135546565011484...
I wonder if there is a way we place these App Store decisions into the hands of a third party. Either that or break Android away from Google and forbid them from colluding.
If you think about it, a lot of Google and Apple's power comes from their dominance of the smartphone market.
I hope that mobile computing follows the path of desktop computing, and we end up with more viable small-device OS options.
>suspension is due to abusive content somewhere on Matrix; we're working with them to explain how Element works
What a joke. Does google remove their own messenger platform and email app too when someone uses them to send something naughty?
How could this be - I was told our corporate overlords are able to do whatever they'd regarding kicking people off their platforms?
Whatever shall we do?
The funny thing about the whole "do bad things and get kicked off" strategy is that every platform has abusers. Since Big Tech can arbitrarily decide the thresholds and circumstances that lead to being kicked off, this effectively means they can kick anyone off for any reason.
Even on here, on Hacker News, if you dig deep enough I guarantee you can find questionable content (albeit probably downvoted) to justify deplatforming if you were tasked with deplatforming this site anyways.
It appears they've also removed Pattle, but Ditto and FluffyChat are still available at this time.
Odd that they'd only remove half of the Matrix clients available...
Instead of putting some money into good service in two sided markets, Google is fine with automatized or low effort curation. High visibility post in Hacker News seems to be how errors can be corrected.
Monopoly power in action. There is little pressure to fix this.
It's becoming more and more clear that there's a problem with these corporately-controlled "free markets" that are neither free nor are they markets. It's time for Congress to do more than just write strongly-worded letters to large tech conglomerates hoping that these kinds of anti-consumer practices stop. It's funny (or sad) that the meme du jour is "build your own app store, bro." We need: (1) transparency and (2) accountability.
First of all, we can't have stuff getting arbitrarily censored or kicked off stores, because even though it may start with alt-right QAnon nonsense, it will lead to things like Hey, Epic, Fortnite, Robinhood ratings being scrubbed, WSB being banned, or now Element. The slippery slope is not hypothetical. It's here.
Secondly, we can't just have AAPL, GOOG, FB, etc. merely say "oops, our bad" when the shit hits the fan. People get mad, they say "oops" -- even though the app may have lost thousands of customers and reputation -- and everyone forgets the snafu ever happened. This is not okay, and as consumers we should not be okay with it. I promise you Google will release a statement saying "certain groups" on Element "used some poopoo language" and the apologists will, yet again, be totally cool with it.
(I don't feel my comment is particularly controversial, yet I'm being mass downvoted with no counter-arguments.. weird.)
This notion that your business can evaporate without notice overnight has to stop.
We absolutely need clear legislation on this, this is causing harm and the power asymmetry is monumental.
Also - consider the conflicts of interests: Google Apps would never, ever get treated the same way.
I think it's time to separate app distribution from the devices themselves.
Thank goodness for F-droid.
I don't use any google services other than youtube at all, but this is hard to justify, even for google.
> We've had contact from Google confirming that the suspension is due to abusive content somewhere on Matrix
If this takedown stands, this effectively means that all distributed message systems are banned from the Play store.
If anyone needs a download, you can easily install/sideload via f-droid or the app can be trivially built with './gradlew assembleDebug' (provide your own keys to build a release version)
This is an unfortunate example of a core danger of the app store (or Play Store, in this case) business model.
With devices, by default, configured to make it difficult to install apps directly, the store becomes the single point of failure.
And we engineers know, all too well, the dangers of single points of failure in any business-critical solution.
What well-run fortune 500 company, or government agency, would fully embrace and build a key business process around apps which can be made to vanish on the whim of an Apple or Google employee who takes issue with how someone fully disconnected from your organization (and maybe even in a different country) uses the same app you have rolled out to thousands of staff members?
In my opinion, the next logical step in âdecentralizationâ of technology is to give mobile device users the same application control, logging, and monitoring powers over their devices that desktop, server, and notebook users have always enjoyed.
Does anyone else here see another logical path?
Perhaps a little cynical but what would stop Google from classifying praising other search engines as "hate speech" and deleting any comments in this direction from their platforms? And when "hate speech" is just a little too absurd then they just classify it as "security risk" and ban it as well.
Use F-Droid - An app repository ("store") for Free Software apps:
Naturally, it has the Element app.
This is basically the last straw for me. The past week has made it perfectly clear that Big Tech will close the circle and protect their own. Anything that appears to be censorship resistant, that allows the little guy to get ahead and compete, or that allows individuals to have greater levels of privacy and freedom, will be shut down and de-platformed.
As was predicted in 1948, "hate speech" has just become a smoke and mirrors term. Facebook and Discord used this excuse to deplatform WSB. Twitter uses this to deplatform people left, right, and center. And now Google is using it deplatform one of the few decentralised projects I had a lot of faith in.
Now I have one reason more to continue to develop a matrix client for Plasma Mobile.
Just a reminder you can install the APK and there's nothing they can do about it.
Not a friendly experience, but not insanely hard either.
Check https://matrix.org/clients/ for alternatives. You cannot take down the matrix network by blocking one app.
Again the giants overplay. But when does the hammer come down upon them that they like to so wield?
Remember,
Competitors on youtube do this all the time to take down competitive content.
E.g. false flags of inappropriate content or copyright to take down videos or channels.
This is a good situation for big players, because there will always exist a real or fake excuse to take down any potentially competitive threat.
Also, unfortunately this system aligns with the goals of our political system that wants to have a one stop shop for surveillance of âlaw breakersâ.
Google Play Store takedown and appeals process is so embarrisingly bad and so easy to fix. 1) give people notice and the chance to respond in most cases before the takedown or put the app back up if an appeal is filed until the appeal is reviewed. 2) allow attachments on the appeals form. They only allow 1,000 characters, which is just not enough for most cases. 3) staff the team so you can reply within 48 hours. Currently, the average seems to be about 10 days. 4) Have a way to see the takedown reason I'm the developer portal. If you appeal, see the appeal was received and is in process.
None of these things take materially more resources from google. Some junior PM should be able to make this better, and it would save google a lot of antitrust concerns. Something like 1M a year would probably do it.
I have never used element, but i just went to the apple app store and downloaded it before they strike it also. it was on my "when i get around to it" list. Well seems like now is the time to get around to it. Seem that i do that more and more often these days.
I think all this App banning stuff will fuel the interest of open source platforms like Pinephone.
The Element app is back in the Google Play Store: https://twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355677158174322688
Let people decides what is wrong and what is correct. Not big tech, not platform creator.
Stop using apps whenever you can.
Use your browser.
Does someone know why f-droid versions tend to be 'few versions behind'?
Quote: "Meanwhile, if it's urgent and you're comfortable installing unsigned APKs, you can grab the latest build from our CI at..."
AFAIK you can still sign it even if you don't publish it via playstore
I wonder, would there be value in publishing a separate incarnation of Element that does not provide any default Matix servers? It would require you to type the server URL or follow a link from the browser
Good to see Element back.
I want to mention that Fedilab [1] and Subway Tooter [2], two famous apps used for Mastodon (or ActivityPub), a decentralized social network, had also been taken down by Google Play with the same reason.
Add a link to the app's website.
One of the reasons I really like Element is the fact that it runs completely in the browser, no need to install a native app - which, lets be realistic, is really only a viable option (for the average consumer) if you submit to the proprietary App Store or Play Store. Sadly, Element Web is not yet responsive, but I hope that changes soon so that it can be finally free from the constraints of the constraints of proprietary native platforms like iOS and Android.
A lot of people seem to believe that thereâs much more to this than there really is.
Google has hired a bunch of 28 year old kids in HR and PR, that never used Usenet, that never used IRC, that barely remember AIM, that had a smartphone before they had their own laptop, that donât understand the internet or technology.
And theyâre the ones making these decisions. There arenât rooms full of Google PMs and programmers and engineers debating the implications. Itâs 3 or 4 kids in-between the ages of 24 and 34, and that room is increasingly technically illiterate, and increasingly unable to imagine an internet before (or after) FAANG hegemony.
This isnât Google being evil to protect advertising dollars, or to kill Matrix, etc.
Itâs google hiring young, unimaginative, uninteresting social justice warriors. Weâve taken for granted that most of the people working in FAANG have been using computers for longer than these companies existed. Thatâs no longer really the case, and the attitudes of these companies are going to continue to change further and further from the unique values that the industry used to represent. In ten years itâs going to be worse, and in 30 itâs going to be unrecognizable.
This just made me install Element right away and finally get away from Signal (and of course Whatssap) and bring as many people with me as possible
Facebook & Twitter found that they must trap people there. The flood to Parler that caused Parler to the top of Apple/Android App Stores made them block free speach.
Matrix app. Discussions on what to do about Telegram / Signal. Blocking Parlor.
Citizens can only challenge the establishment around a rigged economy if citizens have a place for free speech. FB/Twitter enable censorship.
So what happens if people start flagging Google chat products as abusive? Will Google pull its own apps? Probably a big fat no.
I was so close to proposing moving off of Slack and onto something like Element/Matrix. Unfortunately this will be a harder sell to my management considering Google or Apple can just shut down any chat client businesses use.
This is ridiculous.
One take away that this has on me, is that with Google and Apple controlling content on mobile phones, it might be impossible to have a truly decentralized application. I believe that Apple should be required to allow 3rd party installs if the user so chooses. If there is an example of monopolistic behaviour this is one for sure.
What is Element?
The fact that Google needs to have Matrix explained to them is, frankly, appalling. I would expect an organization the size of Google would have someone there who's familiar with these not-uncommon federated networks. Or, you know, just stuff that's trendy in general within the tech crowd.
While we have found a way to establish and execute rules in the real world (legislature and jurisdiction) we have completely forgotten that we need something like that in the digital world as well.
And now a few VPs of Google and Apple dictate who's allowed to bring in their apps into their holy app store.
A thought.. the Samsung Galaxy app store never removed the game Fortnite when Google and Apple both did for financial reasons. Perhaps Element could also become one of the apps there.. there's a lot of Samsung devices out there in the world.
Sigh. These kind of things, as well as the Signal outage, are not helping efforts to help people switch to better messaging alternatives. It nicely illustrates the centralisation of power though.
I wonder what stuff like this does for the French government who rely on Matrix (and presumably element?). Sure they have their own servers and maybe another client.
at least they are not called 'riot' anymore. i can imagine a lot of people might have thought it was an app for organising riots or something
Any reason why the F-Droid version is behind the official one?
I mean, you should now have learned that you can't rely on one single distribution channel.
Mattermost next? Or is Element different somehow?
Question: did this action "only" stop the sales of apps, or did it also break already-installed or even running apps?
It's incredible that they still host web browsers and email clients with these kinds of policies in place.
Quit taking part in monopoly stores
You can use fdroid to install it. Maintained there by Matrix itself as it is free software.
I am going to install Element with F-droid or manual APK load on principle now. Fuck this.
The fight has started..
Luckily theres other clients available too. Client diversity is important
Every Single Day I am leaning more towards non-App Store distribution model.
Google invested billions into the development of Android when no one else stepped up to do it. They are fully within their rights to protect their investment and fully control the Android ecosystem to their own benefit.
Opt out. No Google. No Facebook. No Twitter. No Amazon. You don't need them, you might even enjoy life more without them.
You can't change how they operate. But you can change how you operate.
This seems like a perfect use case for a PWA
would be interested to hear from googlers what's going on
Why is Element suspended but not Signal? Is Signal compromised?
Good bye free speech. Hello unbridled control and censorship.
These actions have been so fast and furious and brazen that you have to wonder: They obviously see people as cattle, but are they right? Or, do they have an ace up their sleeve that makes the answer irrelevant?
Time to Riot again.
How can I install Matrix on an android phone without using the Google Play store?
Who cares if we can't dictate what the terms of phone usage are.
Private company they can do what they want.
Bookmarking this one for when my friends chide me for âstillâ using iOS.
Why do Americans hate freedom so damn much? Why?
It's been remarkable to watch the sad old "first they came for them..." saga play out in real time over the past few years.
At first there were just a few, heavily downvoted, voices saying that Twitter shouldn't be deplatforming obnoxious cretins on grounds of free speech principles. And now here we are with open source chat clients getting removed from the app store.
I know alot of smart people will try to argue Its Not The Same Thing, but I'm with the side that says there's a direct line through these events.
Remind me again what Fascism is and tell me how this isn't fascist.
Tutorial for newfriends on how to join Matrix federation.
Hold on. Nobody has explained why TF I'm supposed to care. Is Element important or something? Does this affect real people?
I got banned here for saying this but I'll continue to say it nevertheless. We are already in the Censorship Era. This is an Orwellian Nightmare. The quicker this is brought under control the better. The last thing we need is Corporate Overlords controlling what we say or do online. This includes Hacker News as well.
'Private company, they do what they want' gang arriving in 3, 2, 1..
I feel like the "App Stores" are kinna on war with the minority recently
I don't understand what google want to do...Evil.
Huh! That's unfortunate. But in the end it's Google's platform and they have the right to kick you out for any or without any reason and/or recourse. If Element doesn't like it they can just make their own Android, play store and sell billions of phones around the world. It's a non-issue.
Right now, the only solution to this situation seems to be sticking to SMS and newer non-IP protocols extending and/or replacing it as a service offered in the regulated TelCo market (in EU at least, but practically in most places). Then mid-term extend regulations to IP- and web-based markets as well, forcing checks/balances, appeals, and an open ecosystem of alternative providers in place where there is feudalism right now. Won't work with FAANG providing services "for free"; that is, by bundling and ad-financed offerings. So bundling has to be regulated as well.
So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still havenât had an email to explain why - itâs 02:24 now.
Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame â although this is currently speculation.
To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as itâs possible to view abusive material via Chrome, the same is true of Element.
However, we abhor abuse, and on the default matrix.org server (and other Matrix servers the core team maintains) we have a fairly strict terms of use at https://matrix.org/legal/terms-and-conditions#6-play-nice-cl... which we proactively enforce. Meanwhile we have a comprehensive toolset at https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation to help folks moderate, and are making good process with decentralised reputation to empower users and admins to filter out stuff they donât want to see, as per https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix....
So, itâs very unfortunate and frustrating that weâre in this position - hopefully Google will explain whatâs going on shortly.