I've always wanted to ask an audiologist whether "active noise cancelling" type technologies actually pose an auditory risk. They kind of have to emit the same amplitude-at-the-ear of audio of what they're cancelling out, right? And sure, most of the time the waves cancel, but maybe the algorithm gets it wrong a couple milliseconds at a time and - while possibly not perceptible - are those high peaks of audio-cancelling-sound damaging?
Is this actually the AirPods?
Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be correlation not causation?
Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods (or similar) could cause tinnitus?
Tinnitus is one of many symptoms many long haul COVID-19 sufferers complain about. Just as an anecdote Dr. Drew Pinsky was ill with COVID-19 around Christmas and complained about severe tinnitus as a result of his infection. So I'd be a little careful trying to draw sweeping conclusions about tinnitus right now without trying to account for and control the pandemic over the last year.
20+ year tinnitus sufferer here, and recent owner of AirPods Pro. I can deal with the condition well enough, mostly by distraction, but just last week stumbled upon a supposed audio treatment on Spotify.
I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again.
Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something.
Any connection here would be interesting.
Anecdotal but I have experienced similar with QC35s. Wear them for a bit for meetings etc (not loud) and tinnitus is noticeable when in bed that evening. Don't use them for a few days and tinnitus is not noticeable. It certainly feels like there is a definite correlation.
I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.
I've had tinnitus since I was a teenager. It's never bothered me, and I assumed everyone had it. I don't usually notice it while focusing on anything else, and even sometimes use it as a meditation object (paying attention to the oscillations of the sound).
I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).
I’ve had tinnitus my entire life and think my case is genetic. There was a brief period in my life where I started reading about it and got pretty stressed I could hear it while trying to sleep. That compounded in on itself and it had me worried for a while. Eventually started meditating, stopped really caring, and never think about it anymore. Every now and then I’ll hear it, but I can focus on my breathing and just get back to life. If I focus, sure, it’s always there, but why bother?
From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that.
Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
PSA: Don’t listen to music in only one ear. It registers in your brain as quieter than it is, and it’s an easy way to cause hearing loss.
This is a very real. I used AirPod Pros for months without any issues until December when the ANC entered a feedback loop, resulting in an extremely loud high-pitched noise for a few seconds until I took the earbuds out. I would estimate 1500Hz at about 115dB. My sense of balance was severely disrupted and a loud ringing in my ears started immediately. I later learned from an audiologist the feedback loop from the AirPods Pros caused a "vestibular event".
I dealt with the constant tinnitus for the following four weeks. Thankfully, it resolved itself with time.
I suspect the feedback loop was in part due to poor fitting of the AirPods in my ears. Regardless, I did nothing to trigger it aside from using the earbuds. Apple ought to take these claims serious.
Blasting audio in a noisy environment for hours can cause tinnitus, AirPods included and not exclusive. Trust me.
Another case of “OMG Apple!” click bait.
What is the hypothesis here? Do these earplugs have some hidden power compared to other Bluetooth headsets that gives people tinnitus?
Decidedly speculative, but when Apple released that firmware update which caused people complained it had weakened the ANC effect there was talk of it being a response to this.
...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.
Amusingly as I read this my tinnitus is hugely amplified and unescapedly present. I have also feared this onset last year may have been caused by my AirPods. Sadly I am unwilling to draw that conclusion based on hundreds of people reporting this issue. If 1,000 people reported getting heartburn after buying AirPods, we’d laugh at the stupidity of this ridiculous correlation. I want my tinnitus to go and I want to blame Apple. I won’t thought ugh unless a clinical study is carried out.
Let’s think about what is going on. Let’s say there is a monotone frequency at constant noise power in a plane wave. Now ANC is a point source of the same frequency. It’s only phase matched on one axis of propagation. Then there is a phase shift in the outside tone and a feedback loop to match the amplifier to the incoming tone. Electronics are fast, but the coil inductance is large, both at the mic and the speaker, so you will get some point of inversion in the match, which looks like a delta function in the interference pattern. A really great-sounding ANC will correct very quickly, which means a very high-frequency discrepancy. Maybe that makes it worse. Maybe high-frequencies that we can’t hear are the problem.
Consider also that audio engineering treats the world as a mixture of pressure oscillations. If you look at the world as a sum of pressure delta functions, you would never attempt ANC. It’s easy to phase lock and destructively interfere with a frequency. It’s impossible to do the same with a delta function. The real world maybe a mixture of both, but not easily separable, and to some extent I think the brain is already pretty good at ignoring constant frequencies, while the delta functions drive us mad. Think about a bird versus a hammer, a cello versus a ratchet.
My favorite setup is earplugs with over-ear headphones. I think audio circuitry gets things wrong and overdrives the high frequencies sometimes, so the ear plugs help filter it out. The worst for me was the bone conduction headphones - serious problems from those. And one more thing, if you always listen to music, try listening to nature for a bit, either in the real world, or through some very high-quality speakers. I don’t think the Pros are quite good enough for this.
I do wonder if one of the factors is simply the matter of the modern earbuds and headphones becoming so convenient that you never really need to take them out.
I used to listen to songs with a wired conventional headphone for when I wanted to isolate myself from distractions for high attention work, but range limitations like the cable connected to the PC didn't allow me to move freely, no transparency mode so I had to take them out to talk with anyone, no multipoint bluetooth so I had to take them out to answer my phone and not having cables and being light in general just means I even forget I have them on. Now with a sony 1000xm4 basically all those opportunities to have my ears rest became unnecessary.
Add to that the fact that the ANC just opens up the possibility of listening to less fatiguing and attention drawing songs, so while I may listen to lower volumes I might also listen for longer periods and with less interruptions. Not to forget services like spotify with the possibility of listening to an eternally long playlist without any thought (while with a CD or mp3 playlist it would eventually reach an end from which I'd have to stop and think if I want to continue listening).
I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland.
I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution.
The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc.
Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
The best noise cancelling ear muffs you can find are for shooters, such as Motorola ComTac. The muffs passively block all noise and instead use a speaker/mic to mirror outside sounds (or audio devices) at an acceptable volume.
Apple has sold about 90 million of these things.
At 600 it is far more likely people have just noticed they have tinnitus or have had damage from some other exposure.
For instance I have tinnitus and it also flares up due to my jaw clenching issues. I suspected my AirPods at one point as I'm a heavy user of ANC devices and struggle with city noise (I wear them a lot even at home). My specialist basically said it wasn't the issue and to see a physio-therapist and sort your jaw. My hearing tests also came back perfectly fine.
Always a good time to mention that hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible. If it hurts, you need to put earplugs in. Consistent noise can damage your hearing at lower levels than a single loud noise, which means you still might need hearing protection to do things like use saws or run air compressors.
And while we can’t yet reverse hearing damage, that’s no excuse to not protect your ears if you’ve already done damage. We can’t fix if, but you can still make it worse with repeated exposure.
They do! Just like all earbuds. Probably I'm the only modern human who's never stuck these things in my ear canals. I'm sure the damage goes beyond tinnitus.
I recently discovered I have tinnitus... have been using Airpods a lot more frequently since last year when working from home.
I have the kind where you have a buzzing sound when things are really quiet and I only really noticed it after going to a quiet city (versus SF).
I think this needs to be researched because it doesn't seem that tinnitus is reversible and if ANC headphones are contributing to it, then we're in for a whole lot of hurt after this pandemic...
I had a very severe allergic reaction to Powerbeats Pro and many people have reported the same problem with Powerbeats Pro and AirPods Pro. It seems most likely to have something to do with a coating on the silicone tips. Apple is stalling with people that report it.
This really is a thing. I mentioned it here 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366
It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.
Those suffering from tinnitus, a couple of things I discovered. One is some medicines may aggravate tinnitus. For me it was my BP medicine. When I switched to different one, my tinnitus was greatly reduced. However I still have some tinnitus due to hearing loss. So when I got hearing aids, after a month of adapting, I noticed the hearing aids suppress the tinnitus even further.
One thing people who have tinnitus should do is get their blood pressure checked.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...
Not specific to AirPods: I’ve had the same issue before with Bose Quiet Comfort 25. After using noise cancelling a few hours for a few days I was having this high pitch issue for a day or two. So not a permanent tinnitus (for me), still doesn’t sound good.
I use noise cancelling headphones and I think tinnitus becomes noticeable because of the noise cancellation rather than it being caused by it. Usually my environment has noises that make it harder to notice that I have tinnitus.
Most of the posts there appear to be about AirPods Pro -- which have ANC. FWIW, I have only ever used the regular AirPods (1st and 2nd gen) for hours on end every day for years and have no issues with them or tinnitus.
Tinnitus sounds different to other people? Or I wonder if it is a similar sound but difficult to describe in a unison way. Given the source of what causes the tinnitus, is it expected people hear high pitched sound?
Studies have shown that the prevalence of tinnitus in a population likely ranges from 5%-30%[0]. Looking at sales figures for AirPods, 50 million users would be a very conservative estimate. Given those numbers 600+ reports is not very convincing.
0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...
I wonder if this could be related to the high-pitched whine that AirPods Pro are somewhat known for after a while?
I'm not surprised given mine seem to play notification sounds at FULL BLAST.
All earplugs or headphones, whatever they are in-ear or not, can give tinnitus. You're blasting loud sounds directly to your ear. I don't understand why this is on the front page.
I'm getting airpods just so I can join the lawsuit
I want to be part of a forum where these are the pre-requisites:
* wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble during a pandemic
* don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so
* if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable to you, leave
EMFs and other waves so close to sensitive biological parts seems unwise. I haven't switched out my iPhone 6 because I trust the headphone jack.
There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people posting reports is much smaller.
Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.
It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....