I think it makes sense that our microbiome should be able to trigger such a response. If your microbiome is changing, it means that some microbe is gaining numbers it didn't previously have, and your current bodily functions, such as your immune system, aren't stopping it. That doesn't necessarily mean your immune system is compromised, but if it is then it would probably be good not to spend a lot of time around other individuals, especially large groups or strangers. Other reasons for your microbiome to be shifting, like a sudden change in diet or enviroment, could also be indicative of an issue like food shortages or territorial change where it would also be good to minimize your exposure to and reliance on others. Finally, depending on what exactly is gaining a foothold, you could potentially be a threat to your kin if you come around them. Developing a social fear response to certain changes in gut microbiome could thus be quite beneficial for most social creatures.
I've seen probiotic supplements that have strains that claim to help with anxiety and depression, but I've never really looked into them because I'm quite skeptical they do anything. But if anyone is familiar with them and has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.
I suspect that this is a compounding effect of two stressors. The mice with a healthy microbiota can handle the social stress, but when you combine both the social stress and disordered gut, the heightened sensitivity is observed.
This is gonna go viral as: just eat more yogurt to stop being awkward or whatever.
I’m writing the following in jest, before anyone takes this seriously, as I assume this kind of correlation has been accounted for.
Maybe the causation is reversed: people who go out more are more frequently infected with all kinds of bugs, from getting too intimate with strangers to eating stuff that was prepared by someone not too assiduous in their hand washing - a sibling reply mentioning fecal microbiota transplant comes to mind
I know this article is about bugs that cause anxiety, but maybe they just lose the competition in a gut environment with the social bugs
People who stay at home are less infected, thus the correlation with these gut specimens
I feel all such studies should be headlined with: In mice: blah blah blah.
and then if the research is farther along:
In <other animal>: blah blah
and finally if ever
In humans: blah blah blah.
I keep reading storie about what happens to mice in studies but I am far more interested when the research has been able to get to human trials and results are coming in.
I've experienced social anxiety myself and always thought it was just part of who I am. Seeing that gut microbiota might influence something as specific as social fear and that it can even trigger it in mice is honestly a bit unsettling.
I'm really curious whether this kind of research could lead to something beyond the usual therapy or medication. It would be amazing to see new treatments emerge that are based on the microbiome.
I’ve dealt with social anxiety myself and always thought it was just part of my personality. This study really surprised me. Transplanting gut microbiota from SAD patients made mice more socially anxious too.
If future treatments can target the gut instead of relying only on willpower or medication, that might be a gentler and more effective path.
Seems like a never-ending cycle for some. You eat sugar and it messes with your brain, then you eat more sugar because your brain is messed up.
16S sequencing doesn't reveal a mechanism, it indicates a narrow genomic pattern that may or may not be relevant.
It's interesting, if we assume that the microbiota "wants" something (like other viruses or bacteria trying to affect the host in some way) and learned it evolutionary then when inside a human it tends to avoid other humans probably due to some disadvantages of the contacts for them. But why? It looks a little strange because humans are highly social species to the edge of survivability so the microbiota just risks losing the host completely.
My social anxiety sky rocketed at 19 and didn't start to settle down until 23/24. I never knew exactly why, and that's always troubled me a bit. A microbe population getting out of hand sounds possible, as my diet and surroundings changed drastically at 19. Interesting stuff.
Yeah, the brain might not be the only place we should be looking when it comes to mental health.
This is well known in low carb and juice fasting communities: many people completely healed life long depression after an extreme dietary change.
Can we just keep taking courses of scorched earth antibiotics until we come up with a microbiome combo that feels good?
Is that why it feels like anxiety comes from the gut?
I've suffered with social anxiety for a very long time. Thirty years ago a doctor prescribed a MAOI which immediately transformed me into a social butterfly (which in hindsight was a very difficult transition). This forever proved to me what the doctor had told me: it is all about chemical balance in the brain.
The problem, of course, was the danger. I could die within minutes if I ate fermented food without taking the antidote I always carried. Problem with that was the risk was almost the same if I took the antidote if it wasn't needed.
I therefore only stayed on the meds for maybe 6 months (during which time I went from 150lbs to 225lbs).
I've never found an alternative substitute. I've taken meds that help lessen the anxiety, but never found anything else that literally changed who I was (making me an incredibly social person).
PS: I think it was Nardil. I wasn't having any issues with depression. The doctor was specializing social anxiety and in particular in the use of Nardil to help. He also told me that the chemical balance in my brain indicated that, without Nardil, I would almost certainly become a hermit in my 70s. I'm 72 and his prognosis was spot on.
I kinda skimmed parts of it but a question I have is whether the study was appropriately blinded. ctrl-f blind didn't give any results. One of my biggest concerns with gut flora research is wishful thinking.
(2023)
They caused SAD in mice by introducing specific microbiota.
But does the system have hysteresis? Can the flip be switched the other way? Introduce antibiotics to wipe out all the microbiota and does the SAD improve?
There can be human trials for this given that antibiotics are approved low risk medicines. Clinical trials with antibiotics to clean out and reset the microbiome along with strict diets in attempt to prevent reintroduction of said microbiota.
It can even be DIY.
this astonishes me
oh yea fore sure but I have just given up on life. I have my job and apartment and I will rot here.
Have anxiety. Got sick when working for FAANG. Had to take disability as a result.
Your guts are VERY tied to your brain, and your gut biome WILL change if you are stressed enough. When your biome goes off, LOTS of bad things can happen to you.
I was in constant pain and had IBS-C for two years until I learned how to manage by stress. But it came at a terrible cost of having to flounder a bunch of opportunities as a result.
If you have lower-left gut pain, talk to your doctor, but for me it was all stress and anxiety.
Offtopic but can we please stop and appreciate the excellent acronym "SAD"? It's gotta be right up there with hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia in the gallery of best disease names.
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Makes sense. People naturally want to poop someplace comfortable because pooping is a very vulnerable position for a human.
I know from personal experience that eating sugar does induce more anxiety in me. This might sound weird but I can "physically feel" in my head a certain anxiety when e.g. I think about something awkward. This "physical feel" stopped being there when I stopped eating sweets for a few weeks. One reason why I try to keep my sugar intake down (the other being in danger of getting diabetes...).
Thus, I wholly believe this study.